/[gentoo]/xml/htdocs/proj/en/devrel/devrel-07162003.log
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Thu Jul 24 01:51:03 2003 UTC (11 years ago) by brandy
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DevRel meeting log for 07/16/2003 added

1 Jul 16 12:55:56 <seemant> so I guess the purpose of this meeting is to kind of map out what needs to be done and who wants to do what
2 Jul 16 12:56:13 <seemant> ideally we all leave this meeting with "something to do"
3 Jul 16 12:56:55 <seemant> first item I would like to put forth is this Developer Handbook idea
4 Jul 16 12:57:12 <klieber> seemant: can I ask a question first?
5 Jul 16 12:57:16 <seemant> please
6 Jul 16 12:57:39 <klieber> seemant: can you explain what devrel is intended to do, as a project? I have a vague idea, but I'm not sure we're all on the same page
7 Jul 16 12:57:59 <klieber> just a high-level overview of what the project is about
8 Jul 16 12:58:22 <seemant> essentially provide the documents and structure to ease relations both between developers and between the developer communities
9 Jul 16 12:58:45 <seemant> those communities would be official gentoo developers and advanced users and prospective developers
10 Jul 16 12:58:58 <klieber> ok, that's perfect.
11 Jul 16 12:59:09 <klieber> just looking for the context of this discussion :)
12 Jul 16 12:59:22 * klieber goes back to his corner now
13 Jul 16 12:59:24 <seemant> klieber: the official page is proj/en/devrel (work in progress)
14 Jul 16 12:59:50 <seemant> so anyway, coming to the Developer Handbook
15 Jul 16 13:00:20 <seemant> the idea there is to have a single place/portal for developer related documents
16 Jul 16 13:01:00 <seemant> everything from recruitment policy, training guidelines, etiquette guidelines to perhaps more tehnical stuff like cvs/repoman usage and ebuild standars
17 Jul 16 13:01:17 <seemant> (the last two I'm not completely sure about, but seem to be natural follow-throughs)
18 Jul 16 13:01:23 <seemant> thoughts?
19 Jul 16 13:01:34 --- seemant gives channel operator status to avenj
20 Jul 16 13:01:36 --- seemant gives channel operator status to Brandy
21 Jul 16 13:01:38 --- seemant gives channel operator status to g2boojum
22 Jul 16 13:01:40 --- seemant gives channel operator status to klieber
23 Jul 16 13:01:41 --- seemant gives channel operator status to fava
24 Jul 16 13:01:43 --- seemant gives channel operator status to lu_zero
25 Jul 16 13:02:02 <avenj> i like it
26 Jul 16 13:02:03 <klieber> personally, I think that's a great idea.
27 Jul 16 13:02:25 <g2boojum> Sounds reasonable to me, although we need to make sure we don't start a turf war w/ the doc folks (not that that should be a problem).
28 Jul 16 13:02:36 <lu_zero> hm
29 Jul 16 13:02:41 <seemant> grant: I'm rather hoping it'll be a collaboration with them
30 Jul 16 13:02:45 <lu_zero> we should ask the help of the doc folks
31 Jul 16 13:02:51 <Brandy> at the moment there are quite a few docs around, they're just a bit fractionated. Being in the same place would be good
32 Jul 16 13:03:02 <g2boojum> seemant: I assumed.
33 Jul 16 13:03:37 <seemant> now, sven had the idea of a general handbook, which I haven't put too much thought into
34 Jul 16 13:03:50 <seemant> so we know that docs people are at least thinking along similar lines
35 Jul 16 13:04:00 <seemant> just that devrel has a narrower focus in that regard
36 Jul 16 13:04:38 <seemant> next item: the pseudo-controversial ombudsman project
37 Jul 16 13:04:51 <seemant> everyone's familiar with the GLEP about that?
38 Jul 16 13:05:02 <seemant> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0007.html
39 Jul 16 13:05:19 <avenj> indeed
40 Jul 16 13:05:27 <g2boojum> yep :)
41 Jul 16 13:05:34 <Brandy> yeah
42 Jul 16 13:06:13 <seemant> from notes I've seen on the mailing lists <nudges kurt>, perhaps aspects of it need tweaking?
43 Jul 16 13:06:27 <klieber> well, I certainly have some opinions about it...
44 Jul 16 13:06:35 <klieber> for the most part, I think it is a good idea...
45 Jul 16 13:06:52 <klieber> but I think it either a) doesn't go far enough or b) needs a sister position that handles big picture type stuff.
46 Jul 16 13:07:08 <klieber> as I said in my responses, I don't like greasing squeeks
47 Jul 16 13:07:17 <klieber> and, in its current form, that's all I think this position does
48 Jul 16 13:07:20 <klieber> I'd like to see it do more
49 Jul 16 13:07:37 <g2boojum> klieber: If you'll write up a description of "go farther", I'll add it.
50 Jul 16 13:07:49 <klieber> g2boojum: not sure I have the best answer to "going farther", tbh
51 Jul 16 13:08:04 <klieber> but I'd like to see something that focuses on the underlying issues, instead of the squeeks
52 Jul 16 13:08:09 <klieber> in a nutshell, that's what my concern is
53 Jul 16 13:08:41 <klieber> also, if everyone else thinks I'm off my rocker, then I'll happily support the proposal in its current form
54 Jul 16 13:08:43 <g2boojum> I agree w/ the big picture, but I think both aspects are important. We _need_ a pressure valve for squeaks.
55 Jul 16 13:08:44 <Brandy> I think an Ombudsman should be looking at ways of avoiding the conflicts in the first place, not just resolving conflicts that do occur
56 Jul 16 13:09:24 <klieber> agreed with both statements.
57 Jul 16 13:09:26 <g2boojum> Brandy: How does one do that? I agree it's a good idea, but I'm not sure how to accomplish it.
58 Jul 16 13:09:31 <klieber> just not sure how to implement a solution
59 Jul 16 13:09:35 <klieber> yeah -- what grant said :)
60 Jul 16 13:09:43 <Brandy> Along the lines of identifying overlapping responsibilities, unclear procedures etc
61 Jul 16 13:10:15 <lu_zero> brb
62 Jul 16 13:11:22 <seemant> grant: Would you like to make a sub-project page for ombudsman in proj/en/devrel?
63 Jul 16 13:11:48 <seemant> grant: I think once we start to formalise and use it, it can be tweaked along the way
64 Jul 16 13:12:07 <g2boojum> seemant: I can do that, but I'm going to be spending time w/ my wife until next Tuesday.
65 Jul 16 13:12:44 <seemant> grant: have a good time :)
66 Jul 16 13:12:49 <seemant> grant: next week is cool
67 Jul 16 13:12:58 <g2boojum> seemant: Thanks!
68 Jul 16 13:13:12 <seemant> which brings us to a related subproject, viz. user relations
69 Jul 16 13:13:27 <seemant> I've asked (yeah I know, I didn't put it up to vote, but :P)
70 Jul 16 13:13:36 <seemant> Brandy to be The Ambassador
71 Jul 16 13:14:07 <seemant> a lot of the tweaks to that project page came from her, and she brings a good perspective of the user side of things
72 Jul 16 13:14:35 <klieber> seemant: what does that position entail?
73 Jul 16 13:14:56 <seemant> Brandy: can you provide a high level description?
74 Jul 16 13:15:01 <g2boojum> Brandy: Do you have plenipotentiary powers? *Grin*
75 Jul 16 13:15:34 <Brandy> g2boojum: I wish :)
76 Jul 16 13:16:23 <Brandy> I think that at the moment there are a lot of users who have trouble finding out about the developer community
77 Jul 16 13:16:51 <Brandy> Also they often have lots of suggestions and queries that don't always get answered
78 Jul 16 13:17:57 <Brandy> So I think there needs to be some sort of interface or people that can help them find info they need, or put them in touch with people that can help them
79 Jul 16 13:18:27 <klieber> Brandy: how are you going to separate out the signal from the noise?
80 Jul 16 13:18:51 <klieber> Brandy: meaning I don't think we want to involve the developers every time a user has a problem in #gentoo or on the forums
81 Jul 16 13:19:09 <klieber> at least I don't...
82 Jul 16 13:19:58 <Brandy> That's a good question. I'm thinking that what User Relations is for - to act as a buffer and ensure the same questions/complaints don't get asked to the same developers over and over
83 Jul 16 13:20:58 <klieber> ok
84 Jul 16 13:22:14 <g2boojum> Brandy: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I entirely understand. Right now the idea seems a bit broad, can you give some examples of what the Ambassador would be doing?
85 Jul 16 13:24:16 <Brandy> Some ideas would be to have a dedicated channel of communication where developer-specific questions can be asked, letting users know of what parts of the development community have openings
86 Jul 16 13:25:09 <klieber> Brandy: one request/suggestion would be to leverage the GWN for as much of that as possible. That was/is its primary reason for being created in the first place.
87 Jul 16 13:25:26 <klieber> that likely won't be an answer for everything, but it could be of some help
88 Jul 16 13:25:38 * klieber admits to being biased in this case :)
89 Jul 16 13:26:12 <seemant> klieber, g2boojum: the reason I'd approached Brandy in the first place was due to her extensive contact/communication with members of the user community
90 Jul 16 13:26:17 <seemant> both on the forms and in the irc channels
91 Jul 16 13:26:31 <g2boojum> Also, I assume that when we restructure the web site to reflect the various projects that should help people at least have a better idea where to look or who to ask.
92 Jul 16 13:26:34 <seemant> and within 5 minutes of she and I talking about devrel, she had outlined at least 3 different issues
93 Jul 16 13:27:01 <seemant> garnered from just the conversations she'd had with users during her time in the forums/channels so far
94 Jul 16 13:27:15 <klieber> seemant: what are the issues? maybe that would given grant and I some more context to help understand this role better?
95 Jul 16 13:27:22 <klieber> s/given/give/
96 Jul 16 13:27:31 <seemant> one of the perceptions is that as developers we're in some far away castle locked away playing with secret potions
97 Jul 16 13:27:38 <seemant> and completely unapproachable
98 Jul 16 13:27:53 <seemant> ^^ that was an issue, thought I've phrased it differently
99 Jul 16 13:28:10 <seemant> another issue was the scattering of different data (which led to the Handbook idea)
100 Jul 16 13:28:41 <Brandy> At the moment there are a lot of users who are really quite unaware of how to become a developer, what the specific roles of a developer are etc. DevRel should provide a point of contact for these users.
101 Jul 16 13:28:42 <-- lu_zero has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
102 Jul 16 13:29:00 <klieber> ok -- that helps.
103 Jul 16 13:29:16 <g2boojum> I could also add "developers are rude to users" and "Changes in Gentoo are chaotic" to seemant's list, as a guess.
104 Jul 16 13:29:46 <klieber> I guess I'm concerned with being too open and available with our users -- I don't want to set the expectation that, any time a user can't figure out how to su to root that we can/will provide support to them.
105 Jul 16 13:29:58 <seemant> klieber: no, that's not the aim at all
106 Jul 16 13:30:14 <seemant> our focus in devrel is more to the advanced users and prospective developers
107 Jul 16 13:30:15 <klieber> ok, then I'm missing something, obviously :)
108 Jul 16 13:30:15 --> lu_zero (~lu_zero@ppp-6-196.25-151.libero.it) has joined #gentoo-devrel
109 Jul 16 13:30:25 <Brandy> I'm also aware of some people who don't have the desire/time to ever think about taking on the responsibilities of a developer. I'd like to look at ways in which they can still be used (testers, documentation etc)
110 Jul 16 13:32:03 <seemant> klieber: and note that brandy's office's role is to filter a lot of the cruft out before presenting to the developer community
111 Jul 16 13:32:26 <seemant> klieber: think of an Embassy
112 Jul 16 13:32:34 <klieber> ok -- I think I get it
113 Jul 16 13:33:03 <g2boojum> klieber: I think we may be mingling "devrel" and "userrel" issues.
114 Jul 16 13:33:03 <seemant> she'll stamp people's passports, replace missing visitor visas etc
115 Jul 16 13:33:11 <klieber> g2boojum: yep -- sounds like it.
116 Jul 16 13:33:17 <g2boojum> Hmmm, we don't have a "userrel" project.
117 Jul 16 13:33:46 <klieber> maybe we should rename this project to community relations or something more generic.
118 Jul 16 13:33:52 * klieber likes the sound of commrel
119 Jul 16 13:34:46 <g2boojum> Oh, "User Relations" is a subproject. I don't remember that. Oops!
120 Jul 16 13:35:25 <seemant> well we quite possibly can expand the user rel subproject to attempt to deal with some the things grant and kurt brought up
121 Jul 16 13:35:45 <Brandy> indeed
122 Jul 16 13:36:30 <seemant> kurt, grant, we'll think upon that more during the week and tweak the project description
123 Jul 16 13:36:46 <g2boojum> Fair enough.
124 Jul 16 13:36:53 <klieber> cool -- I like the idea in principle and I think Brandy will do a great job.
125 Jul 16 13:37:31 <g2boojum> Works for me.
126 Jul 16 13:37:46 * g2boojum watched too much Hunter in his youth.
127 Jul 16 13:37:54 <seemant> lol
128 Jul 16 13:38:13 <seemant> ok, so in the next week or 10 days then
129 Jul 16 13:38:26 <seemant> we'll have subproject pages up for ombudsman from grant
130 Jul 16 13:38:32 <seemant> The Embassy from Brandy
131 Jul 16 13:38:43 <seemant> and avenj and I will start outlining the Developers Handbook
132 Jul 16 13:38:58 <seemant> avenj: fair with you? I'm speaking for you coz you're sleepy, and I can advantage :P
133 Jul 16 13:39:49 --- seemant gives channel operator status to lu_zero
134 Jul 16 13:40:02 <seemant> so, before we adjourn, any outstanding issues or questions?
135 Jul 16 13:40:04 <seemant> luca, fred?
136 Jul 16 13:40:40 <fava> ambassador@gentoo.org perhaps
137 Jul 16 13:41:02 <klieber> that sounds a bit presumptuous, doesn't it?
138 Jul 16 13:41:02 <seemant> seens fair enough to me
139 Jul 16 13:41:22 <seemant> presumptuous?
140 Jul 16 13:41:50 <fava> klieber: Only if it conferrs diplomatic immumity.
141 Jul 16 13:42:00 <klieber> nm -- if you guys like it then that's good enough for me.
142 Jul 16 13:42:01 <lu_zero> seemant I have to read the backlog....
143 Jul 16 13:42:18 <seemant> klieber: no no, tell about your reservation
144 Jul 16 13:42:19 <g2boojum> I'm thinking the word klieber had in mind was "condescending", since it propagates the notion that one _needs_ an ambassador to the High-Falutin devs.
145 Jul 16 13:42:34 <seemant> grant: indeed, that makes sense
146 Jul 16 13:42:37 <klieber> grant pretty much said it
147 Jul 16 13:43:00 <seemant> except she's more of their ambassador to us
148 Jul 16 13:43:27 <klieber> I guess I have negative connotations regarding the word "ambassador" that color my opinion of it
149 Jul 16 13:43:38 <fava> an ambassador is a friendly contact in a hostile or stange area.
150 Jul 16 13:43:44 <klieber> which is why I backed off earlier. :)
151 Jul 16 13:43:54 <klieber> if you guys are fine with it, then I'm fine with it.
152 Jul 16 13:43:59 <seemant> klieber: that mail alias can come later anyway
153 Jul 16 13:44:04 <g2boojum> seemant: True, but the context might not be obvious. How about we leave it up in the air for more thought.
154 Jul 16 13:44:06 <seemant> it's not needed immediately, regardless
155 Jul 16 13:44:23 <seemant> grant: agree
156 Jul 16 13:44:33 <Brandy> I too think ambassador is a bit rich. My role should ideally be transparent, so the high-end users can communicate effectively with the development community.
157 Jul 16 13:45:23 <lu_zero> hmm
158 Jul 16 13:45:32 <lu_zero> a nice term may be shaman
159 Jul 16 13:45:36 <lu_zero> or medium
160 Jul 16 13:46:15 <lu_zero> just to make it look less serious
161 Jul 16 13:46:20 * g2boojum has images of Brandy "channelling" seemant.
162 Jul 16 13:46:23 <seemant> well, it's something we can decide a little later, anyhow
163 Jul 16 13:46:25 <g2boojum> Anything else?
164 Jul 16 13:46:46 <seemant> oh yeah
165 Jul 16 13:46:47 <seemant> just quickly
166 Jul 16 13:46:55 <seemant> everyone ok with Tal's Developer Profiles idea?
167 Jul 16 13:47:11 <Brandy> I like the idea.
168 Jul 16 13:47:11 <klieber> uh...
169 Jul 16 13:47:16 <klieber> what developer profiles idea?
170 Jul 16 13:47:24 * klieber obviously did not do his homework
171 Jul 16 13:47:49 <seemant> klieber: he sent out a dtd for a small developer profile
172 Jul 16 13:48:09 <seemant> including photo, email, name, herds memberships, which ebuilds are directly maintained
173 Jul 16 13:48:13 <seemant> iirc
174 Jul 16 13:48:18 <klieber> ok -- that makes sense.
175 Jul 16 13:48:27 <klieber> sure -- that sounds like a good idea.
176 Jul 16 13:48:30 <g2boojum> klieber: Storing dev info as xml files. Name, username, location, gpg key, herds, projects, hardware available, ...
177 Jul 16 13:48:39 <seemant> oh right gpg and h/w too
178 Jul 16 13:48:42 <g2boojum> Ideally the dev roster should be generated from the profiles.
179 Jul 16 13:48:46 <seemant> the h/w idea of his was cunning
180 Jul 16 13:48:48 <Brandy> I don't think devs should be compelled to have all details listed though if they like a little bit of anonymity.
181 Jul 16 13:48:56 <g2boojum> seemant: Mine, actually.
182 Jul 16 13:49:01 <klieber> h/w?
183 Jul 16 13:49:05 <seemant> the h/w idea of grant's was cunning
184 Jul 16 13:49:08 <seemant> hardware
185 Jul 16 13:49:14 <g2boojum> I keep seeing people say on -dev "Hey, who has ppc to test ..."
186 Jul 16 13:49:18 <klieber> oh right
187 Jul 16 13:49:55 <klieber> Brandy: likely we can mandate certain fields (name, nick, gpg key, herds, projects, etc.) and leave others as optional
188 Jul 16 13:50:05 <seemant> Brandy: yes -- things like username, gpg key, herds, projects and hardware should be to provide as compulsory
189 Jul 16 13:50:23 <Brandy> that sounds fair. :)
190 Jul 16 13:50:24 <g2boojum> Brandy: Good point. I'm certainly not going to add my astrological sign!
191 Jul 16 13:50:30 <seemant> the realname/location/turn-ons/turn-offs fields can be lef tto developer discretion
192 Jul 16 13:50:59 <fava> If you require devs to create/update there own and place it in dev.g.o :~ a script can automatically collect the info ang generate the dev list from it
193 Jul 16 13:51:02 <g2boojum> I haven't looked at the dtd, just the example xml. That might need to be fixed.
194 Jul 16 13:51:13 <klieber> fava: yep -- I was just thinking how we'd do that. :)
195 Jul 16 13:51:22 <klieber> fava: likely we'll store it in ldap, actually
196 Jul 16 13:51:54 <seemant> so can someone take a quick log of the meeting please?
197 Jul 16 13:52:16 <g2boojum> klieber: You know, if we use ldap then we don't need really need a dtd or the xml, we can just have users log in and add the changes.
198 Jul 16 13:52:23 --> lu_zero_ (~lu_zero@ppp-226-182.25-151.libero.it) has joined #gentoo-devrel
199 Jul 16 13:52:41 <klieber> g2boojum: yep
200 Jul 16 13:52:49 <g2boojum> Wow, use LDAP to store directory info. What a _good_ idea. *Smacks forehead again*
201 Jul 16 13:52:58 <seemant> lol
202 Jul 16 13:53:02 <klieber> g2boojum: we'll be moving towards ldap in a big way for infrastructure stuff
203 Jul 16 13:53:11 <-- lu_zero has quit (Killed (NickServ (ghosted: lu_zero_!~lu_zero@ppp-226-182.25-151.libero.it)))
204 Jul 16 13:53:44 <g2boojum> klieber: That was the impression I had.
205 Jul 16 13:53:49 <g2boojum> Cool.
206 Jul 16 13:54:20 <-- lu_zero_ (~lu_zero@ppp-226-182.25-151.libero.it) has left #gentoo-devrel
207 Jul 16 13:55:00 --> lu_zero (~lu_zero@ppp-226-182.25-151.libero.it) has joined #gentoo-devrel
208 Jul 16 13:55:04 <lu_zero> back
209 Jul 16 13:55:06 <g2boojum> Okay, I'm still at work and I have a strong desire to head on home. 'Caio, all.
210 Jul 16 13:55:27 <Brandy> Ciao g2boojum
211 Jul 16 13:55:42 <g2boojum> Brandy: Oh, and nice meeting you, ma'am.
212 Jul 16 13:55:44 <lu_zero> bye g2boojum
213 Jul 16 13:55:53 * g2boojum is gone: Headed back to the barn.
214 Jul 16 13:56:01 <Brandy> g2boojum: the pleasure's all mine :)
215 Jul 16 13:56:42 <klieber> ok, if we're done, then I'm headed off to bed. 4am comes early
216 Jul 16 13:57:05 <lu_zero> klieber really ^^
217 Jul 16 13:57:15 <seemant> yep adjourned
218 Jul 16 13:57:20 <seemant> someone logged this?
219 Jul 16 13:57:24 <klieber> cooldealneal
220 Jul 16 13:57:26 <klieber> yep -- I've got logs
221 Jul 16 13:57:31 <seemant> thanks kurt
222 Jul 16 13:57:35 <seemant> thank you all
223 Jul 16 13:57:40 <Brandy> bye
224 Jul 16 13:57:43 <klieber> night/morning all

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