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Thu Jul 24 00:52:21 2003 UTC (10 years, 11 months ago) by avenj
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Adding meeting log

1 Jul 23 19:06:10 <seemant> ok, let's get started
2 Jul 23 19:06:16 <seemant> hi grant, just in time
3 Jul 23 19:06:37 <seemant> I'd like to just kick off with having spyderous introduce his ideas to us about user relations
4 Jul 23 19:06:41 <seemant> spyderous: here?
5 Jul 23 19:07:26 <seemant> just to quickly pre-cap: intro spyderous, intro stuart and his proposal (related to glep # 3 btw)
6 Jul 23 19:07:53 <seemant> then we'd like to move Conflict Res. to an active subproject
7 Jul 23 19:07:58 <seemant> so we'll address that
8 Jul 23 19:08:10 <seemant> and an update from Brandy about User Rel side of things
9 Jul 23 19:08:24 <seemant> finally, GWN announcement for DevRel in order?
10 Jul 23 19:08:54 <seemant> (I'm lagging big time)
11 Jul 23 19:09:28 <seemant> erm, ok, let's skip ahead to Stuart
12 Jul 23 19:09:30 <spyderous> here
13 Jul 23 19:09:36 <seemant> haha
14 Jul 23 19:09:39 <seemant> spyderous: ok, you're up
15 Jul 23 19:09:40 <spyderous> skip
16 Jul 23 19:09:59 <spyderous> i'll go after stuart
17 Jul 23 19:10:05 <seemant> Stuart: then you
18 Jul 23 19:10:14 <Stuart> k
19 Jul 23 19:10:21 <Stuart> seemant:
20 Jul 23 19:10:25 <Stuart> bah
21 Jul 23 19:10:46 <Stuart> I've put together a proposal for how I personally see my role as a Gentoo Developer
22 Jul 23 19:11:04 <Stuart> seemant's already circulated the URL, so I won't repeat it here
23 Jul 23 19:11:37 <avenj> a non-pdf version of that would be sexy, btw - dunno if anyone's done that yet
24 Jul 23 19:11:47 <avenj> actually, a guidexml version on devrel would probably be best
25 Jul 23 19:12:08 <Stuart> guidexml takes too long to write
26 Jul 23 19:12:34 <Stuart> and is a pain to edit ;-)
27 Jul 23 19:12:44 <avenj> i can guidexmlify it at some point, just not exactly soon
28 Jul 23 19:12:58 <Stuart> I'll look into writing a guidexml export filter for OO 1.1, now that I have that installed and working - that ok as a compromise?
29 Jul 23 19:13:21 <avenj> whatever works
30 Jul 23 19:13:34 <Stuart> grin - PDF works for most of the world ;-)
31 Jul 23 19:13:41 <seemant> from the people who've read it -- I know spyderous has commented
32 Jul 23 19:13:54 <seemant> Brandy: your comments from User Rel point of view?
33 Jul 23 19:14:23 <Brandy> The users would *love* the ability to have their ebuilds sponsored
34 Jul 23 19:14:53 <Brandy> One thing to keep in mind is what we do if/when Gentoo decides to maintain the package itself
35 Jul 23 19:15:08 <Brandy> i.e. where does the user stand?
36 Jul 23 19:15:21 <Stuart> mmm
37 Jul 23 19:15:40 <Stuart> I don't see sponsorship as Gentoo giving up responsibility for the ebuild
38 Jul 23 19:16:12 <Stuart> a sizable proportion of sponsored ebuilds will still need editing by devs before they're fit to commit
39 Jul 23 19:16:52 <seemant> Stuart: I wonder if you have seen liquidx's ebuild writing/submitting doc?
40 Jul 23 19:16:52 <spyderous> qa testing, if nothing else </interrupt>
41 Jul 23 19:17:06 <Stuart> seement: the one on www.gentoo.org?
42 Jul 23 19:17:22 <seemant> http://peregrine.gentoo.org/~liquidx/ebuildmistakes.html
43 Jul 23 19:17:51 <Stuart> seement: looking now
44 Jul 23 19:18:18 <seemant> that's more implementation detail oriented
45 Jul 23 19:18:31 <Stuart> seemant: agreed
46 Jul 23 19:18:54 <seemant> but it has some good info to minimise the dev-editing part of a submitted ebuild
47 Jul 23 19:19:30 <Stuart> I think it's important that the Gentoo Developers who sponsor users' ebuilds are still ultimately the ones responsible for the ebuilds
48 Jul 23 19:20:11 <seemant> the thing I would like to get a feel for is whether you all think we can use/adapt/adopt Stuart's guidelines into devrel's handbook project and/or propose to expand the developer policy
49 Jul 23 19:20:21 <seemant> Stuart: 100% agreed
50 Jul 23 19:20:48 <spyderous> i feel like much of it could serve as guidelines rather than policy
51 Jul 23 19:20:56 <avenj> i agree with spyderous wrt guidelines rather than policy
52 Jul 23 19:21:25 <seemant> Brandy: g2boojum: klieber: ?
53 Jul 23 19:21:44 <klieber> I don't do enough ebuild development stuff to really offer a good opinion
54 Jul 23 19:22:03 * klieber has committed....~6 ebuilds in his entire career :)
55 Jul 23 19:22:04 <Brandy> I think guidelines too since the proposal outlines the dev him/herself having the final say on sponsoring any ebuild
56 Jul 23 19:22:11 <avenj> klieber's lying - he's told me he secretly has a desire to maintain kde and openoffice
57 Jul 23 19:22:18 <Stuart> any particular reason why guidelines rather than policy?
58 Jul 23 19:22:22 <seemant> klieber: well, Stuart's doc is more of a way to define the relationship between an ebuild, a gentoo developer, and a user-dev
59 Jul 23 19:22:36 <avenj> Stuart: because it should be up to each developer how they want to handle new ebuilds
60 Jul 23 19:22:46 <g2boojum> I'd say it's a good set of guidelines. I think more devs need to "buy-in" before it could be policy.
61 Jul 23 19:22:53 <avenj> Stuart: and potentially on a per-ebuild case-by-case basis, too
62 Jul 23 19:23:32 <klieber> Stuart: one area that I don't think should be policy is the "requirement" that notifications be sent out for updates and security fixes.
63 Jul 23 19:23:34 <Stuart> avenj: that's fair enough, but if Gentoo wants to tackle QA, at some point something like this'll have to become policy
64 Jul 23 19:23:58 <avenj> Stuart: why? what if i want to suck up a user-submitted ebuild and do everything with it myself without user involvement on that ebuild?
65 Jul 23 19:24:07 <Stuart> just to be clear - I never intended this to become policy
66 Jul 23 19:24:42 <avenj> (that is, past the original ebuild)
67 Jul 23 19:24:54 <Stuart> avenj: that's not what my doc is about
68 Jul 23 19:25:10 <spyderous> that's what _part_ of it is about.
69 Jul 23 19:25:13 <Stuart> avenj: with the doc, I'm trying to standardise the way *I* work on ebuilds
70 Jul 23 19:25:18 <avenj> Stuart: right - hence guidelines
71 Jul 23 19:25:19 <avenj> rather than policy
72 Jul 23 19:25:27 <spyderous> the relationship between user and developer could be guidelines ; the qa (in some form) could be policy
73 Jul 23 19:26:16 <seemant> ya I mean I think the acceptance tests and the incidence tests would make for good qa policy
74 Jul 23 19:26:47 <Stuart> argh - I can't type fast enough ;-)
75 Jul 23 19:27:18 <spyderous> well, it is 6 against 1.
76 Jul 23 19:27:28 <Stuart> grin - 6 against 0 you mean ;-)
77 Jul 23 19:28:39 <Stuart> I'm not here to argue the case for making anything in the doc into official policy
78 Jul 23 19:28:39 <seemant> I don't think it's that
79 Jul 23 19:28:39 <seemant> I think people generally like your doc
80 Jul 23 19:29:03 <seemant> avenj: we'll talk later more on the handbook, yeah?
81 Jul 23 19:29:06 <avenj> seemant: yeah
82 Jul 23 19:29:19 <avenj> those docs i promised may be delayed some - releng is sucking up time
83 Jul 23 19:29:23 <seemant> so, moving along then -- spyderous, who are you and what are your ideas about user rel?
84 Jul 23 19:29:30 <seemant> avenj: understandably -- it's not a problem :)
85 Jul 23 19:29:53 <spyderous> Hi everyone. My name's Donnie.
86 Jul 23 19:30:22 * g2boojum waits for the chorus of "Hi, Donnie".
87 Jul 23 19:30:36 <spyderous> AA or devrel..hmm.
88 Jul 23 19:30:54 <spyderous> i've noticed we have devrel things in place to deal with developer-to-advanced-user relations
89 Jul 23 19:31:06 <spyderous> but not with what IMO is the majority of our user base
90 Jul 23 19:31:33 <spyderous> we need to have more outreach efforts to the beginning-to-mid-level users
91 Jul 23 19:31:45 <spyderous> making developers more accessible is one step
92 Jul 23 19:32:40 <spyderous> this is a bad metaphor, but now we're more like distant gods than parents
93 Jul 23 19:33:10 <spyderous> don't get me wrong, some of us are very approachable and willing to spend time working with users
94 Jul 23 19:33:18 <spyderous> but that should be the goal for all of us
95 Jul 23 19:33:50 <avenj> just to play devil's advocate for a minute - what's the tangible benefit of spending time working with not-very-advanced users?
96 Jul 23 19:33:50 <klieber> spyderous: understanding that I got my start with gentoo by helping users, why should it be the goal for all of us?
97 Jul 23 19:33:51 <spyderous> i believe brandy's working on a faq for linux beginners
98 Jul 23 19:33:56 <avenj> right, what klieber said
99 Jul 23 19:34:08 <spyderous> the goal is that gentoo is a community
100 Jul 23 19:34:16 <spyderous> and it should act like one
101 Jul 23 19:34:30 <avenj> but what if a developer doesn't have time to spend working with users because they're developing?
102 Jul 23 19:34:31 <klieber> spyderous: not sure I follow your logic.
103 Jul 23 19:34:40 <avenj> the community isn't going to go anywhere because i don't help Joe User
104 Jul 23 19:34:52 <avenj> there's still 25,000 registered users on the forums, ~600 people at any one time in #gentoo, tec
105 Jul 23 19:34:52 <avenj> er
106 Jul 23 19:34:53 <avenj> etc
107 Jul 23 19:34:59 <avenj> all of whom help each other out
108 Jul 23 19:35:08 <klieber> I'm not saying we should all live in a white tower, but by the same token, we have some very anti-social developers who still provide an incredibly positive net contribution to gentoo
109 Jul 23 19:35:16 <avenj> right
110 Jul 23 19:35:23 <Stuart> agreed
111 Jul 23 19:35:29 <spyderous> purposely avoiding users is not what we want to do
112 Jul 23 19:35:30 <avenj> i think that developers interacting heavily with users should be an optional thing, something to do if you enjoy it
113 Jul 23 19:35:35 <spyderous> maybe they don't actively go out and help users all the time
114 Jul 23 19:35:36 <klieber> spyderous: again, why?
115 Jul 23 19:35:40 <spyderous> but they should at least be approachable
116 Jul 23 19:35:51 <Brandy> We can always let User-Relations act as the conduit for users of all levels, thus insulating devs from the inane newbie questions
117 Jul 23 19:36:16 <klieber> I agree that this is a community and all communities have different types of folks.
118 Jul 23 19:36:26 <klieber> some folks are very quiet introverts, some are extroverts.
119 Jul 23 19:36:45 <avenj> i guess you need to define 'approachable'
120 Jul 23 19:36:56 <klieber> yes, that would help
121 Jul 23 19:37:03 <spyderous> approachable meaning there's an obvious way to contact them
122 Jul 23 19:37:07 <g2boojum> spyderous: Not to be too stupid about this, but define "approachable". Azarah, for instance, generally reponds to his bug reports and sometimes his e-mails, but he's perennially swamped. I don't know that I really want him to be _more_ approachable.
123 Jul 23 19:37:09 <spyderous> and it's posted publicly and easy to find
124 Jul 23 19:37:13 <spyderous> associated with their expertise
125 Jul 23 19:37:22 <avenj> sounds like the devlist to me
126 Jul 23 19:37:28 <klieber> spyderous: I like Brandy's idea, personally
127 Jul 23 19:38:00 <spyderous> i suppose scaling up the size of user relations is always a possibility
128 Jul 23 19:38:15 <spyderous> brandy by herself would probably having a little trouble dealing with every question that would go to every developer
129 Jul 23 19:38:25 <klieber> indeed
130 Jul 23 19:38:42 <avenj> i guess i don't really know what the purpose of approachable devs is
131 Jul 23 19:38:45 <avenj> that is, what you feel the purpose is
132 Jul 23 19:38:47 <klieber> but by the same token, danarmak would be buried if he had to respond to all KDE-related queries.
133 Jul 23 19:38:57 <avenj> we have bugzilla for bug reports, for example
134 Jul 23 19:39:01 <avenj> and feature requests
135 Jul 23 19:39:13 <spyderous> if joe user has a question bob user can't answer, i think he should be able to contact "the gentoo expert" on it
136 Jul 23 19:39:14 <avenj> we have gentoo-dev@gentoo.org for discussion about ebuild development
137 Jul 23 19:39:19 <avenj> spyderous: why?
138 Jul 23 19:39:23 <avenj> that is, why do we need to be tech support?
139 Jul 23 19:39:47 <avenj> frankly, i'll do tech support for people in #gentoo or on the forums when i'm up for it, but i don't feel _obligated_ to do it and i don't think i _should_ feel obligated to do it
140 Jul 23 19:40:36 <spyderous> there's a difference between obligation and encouragement
141 Jul 23 19:40:41 <spyderous> just like between guidelines and policy
142 Jul 23 19:41:04 <klieber> spyderous: personally, I want to encourage all gentoo developers to do a) what they're good at and b) what makes them happy.
143 Jul 23 19:41:12 <spyderous> i'd imagine some of us would be more than willing to answer questions we got, if we actually got them
144 Jul 23 19:41:16 <Stuart> I think one thing that's important is that the devs don't lose touch with our userbase
145 Jul 23 19:41:22 <spyderous> but since people can't figure out who to ask or how to ask them, they don't get asked
146 Jul 23 19:41:35 <spyderous> Stuart's summed up the whole thing.
147 Jul 23 19:41:44 <avenj> Stuart: yeah, but my question is: how far does that extend?
148 Jul 23 19:41:44 <klieber> ok, but isn't that our job?
149 Jul 23 19:41:59 <Stuart> if the gentoo devs become mainly an inward-looking group, it'll eventually disappear up its own back passage
150 Jul 23 19:41:59 <avenj> Stuart: i mean, not losing touch with the userbase is obviously very important
151 Jul 23 19:42:05 <avenj> but does that extend to being everyone's personal tech support?
152 Jul 23 19:42:13 <Stuart> avenj: no it doesn't
153 Jul 23 19:42:15 <avenj> okay
154 Jul 23 19:42:31 <spyderous> it wouldn't be difficult to set up a tree of "gentoo help", since there's an informal one already
155 Jul 23 19:42:34 <spyderous> with devs at the top
156 Jul 23 19:42:42 <Stuart> but how many of our devs have any idea about how the packages they write ebuilds for are actually used out there?
157 Jul 23 19:43:12 <seemant> well look, there are attitudes among devs that do need to be addressed
158 Jul 23 19:43:26 <seemant> bug 24933 sticks out
159 Jul 23 19:43:30 <Stuart> and how many of them care? ;-) a lot I think
160 Jul 23 19:43:39 <seemant> that's devs being *completely* out of touch with users
161 Jul 23 19:43:41 <avenj> definitely
162 Jul 23 19:44:10 <g2boojum> Stuart: That's true. At the same time, though, it is literally impossible to keep up w/ #gentoo, #gentoo-dev, the forums, and the -user, -dev, and -core mailing lists.
163 Jul 23 19:44:38 <spyderous> keep up with what you can.
164 Jul 23 19:44:43 <spyderous> it's that easy. =)
165 Jul 23 19:44:54 <klieber> spyderous: I think people already do that.
166 Jul 23 19:45:21 <Stuart> I agree it's impossible to keep up. I don't read the forums myself, for example - I just don't have the time
167 Jul 23 19:45:31 <avenj> some devs just need a serious attitude adjustment - i guess i don't see how that necessarily fits with this
168 Jul 23 19:45:42 <avenj> but i don't have a clear picture of what "this" is either, so i could be totally off
169 Jul 23 19:45:48 <spyderous> you don't see how better attitudes fit in with getting along with users?
170 Jul 23 19:46:08 <Stuart> lol
171 Jul 23 19:46:12 <klieber> getting along != being more approachable, imo
172 Jul 23 19:46:20 <avenj> klieber: right
173 Jul 23 19:46:33 <klieber> we're talking about a number of different issues here, it seems.
174 Jul 23 19:46:34 <spyderous> but to be approachable, you need to get along
175 Jul 23 19:47:15 <klieber> spyderous: I doubt that anyone here disagrees that we need to get along with our user base and be respectful of them in our interactions with them.
176 Jul 23 19:47:20 --> tberman (~tberman@dsl-207-112-41-32.tor.primus.ca) has joined #gentoo-devrel
177 Jul 23 19:47:22 <spyderous> so 1) improved attitudes, 2) improved approachability, especially about development issues 3) simply ask devs who can to help out more 4) inform users what resources are available
178 Jul 23 19:47:39 <klieber> spyderous: can you please define #2 better?
179 Jul 23 19:47:39 <Stuart> I'd go with 1) and 4)
180 Jul 23 19:47:53 <spyderous> klieber: it's already in progress, with herds, metadata, etc.
181 Jul 23 19:48:08 <tberman> spyderous: improved attitudes means what exactly (srry, im so late, slow subway)
182 Jul 23 19:48:17 <spyderous> if i have a question about <random package> and why its ebuild does this or that, i don't know who to ask
183 Jul 23 19:48:17 <klieber> spyderous: if the net result of #2 is expecting all devs to perform direct end-user support, then I think we should discuss that further.
184 Jul 23 19:48:22 <avenj> tberman: that some devs have a nasty attitude for the sake of having a nasty attitude
185 Jul 23 19:48:32 <tberman> avenj: who?
186 Jul 23 19:48:33 <avenj> tberman: and despite slaps on the wrist, don't get the idea
187 Jul 23 19:48:35 <klieber> spyderous: you post a question on the forums, -user or -dev.
188 Jul 23 19:48:38 <tberman> avenj: i havnt noticed that really
189 Jul 23 19:48:45 <avenj> tberman: i sure have
190 Jul 23 19:48:47 <tberman> well, with one dev i have, but other than that
191 Jul 23 19:49:34 <tberman> spyderous: i would say #1 and #2 as the same
192 Jul 23 19:49:51 <klieber> tberman: we were just saying they're different. :)
193 Jul 23 19:49:51 <g2boojum> I'm happy w/ 1 and 4. I think 3 already happens. I think having particular devs handling 2 would probably be better than trying to get everybody to do so. We could certainly use a few devs whose duties are really just to keep up w/ user issues.
194 Jul 23 19:50:12 * g2boojum points to Brandy
195 Jul 23 19:50:18 <Brandy> hehe
196 Jul 23 19:50:29 <tberman> haha, they dont seem to be to me, but i missed the previous stuff, so ill admit my own ignorance
197 Jul 23 19:50:46 <klieber> honestly, I thought one of the primary goals of this project was to provide a better end user experience *without* bogging the dev team down with end user support
198 Jul 23 19:51:54 <Stuart> klieber: to provide a better end-user experience, we need to know what's wrong with the current experience ;-)
199 Jul 23 19:52:09 <klieber> Stuart: agreed -- I thought that's what we were here to do.
200 Jul 23 19:52:17 <klieber> collect data and report a distilled version back to the dev team
201 Jul 23 19:52:18 <Stuart> k
202 Jul 23 19:52:33 <klieber> rather than try to strong-arm folks into doing something that they a) might not want to or b) might be ill-equipped to.
203 Jul 23 19:52:45 <Stuart> agreed on both counts
204 Jul 23 19:52:51 <spyderous> i'd be interested to hear your opinions on seemant's idea about opening #gentoo-dev.
205 Jul 23 19:52:57 <spyderous> (occasionally)
206 Jul 23 19:53:16 <spyderous> it seems to me that mirrors what i'm saying
207 Jul 23 19:53:23 <klieber> Personally, I think it's a great idea on occasion.
208 Jul 23 19:53:29 <klieber> because we don't force anyone to participate in that
209 Jul 23 19:53:39 <Brandy> seems to work really well on the weekends
210 Jul 23 19:53:40 * g2boojum agrees w/ klieber
211 Jul 23 19:53:52 <Stuart> why isn't it open atm?
212 Jul 23 19:53:54 <avenj> a regular scheduled 'open #-dev' day would be good
213 Jul 23 19:53:59 <avenj> Stuart: looked at #gentoo lately?
214 Jul 23 19:54:02 * klieber points to #gentoo as the reason why -dev is locked
215 Jul 23 19:54:03 <avenj> right
216 Jul 23 19:54:08 <Stuart> lol
217 Jul 23 19:54:25 <klieber> but I think opening it weekly is fine.
218 Jul 23 19:54:27 <Stuart> so, how is opening #gentoo-dev gonna prevent the same thing from happening?
219 Jul 23 19:54:29 <klieber> gives users a chance to interact, etc.
220 Jul 23 19:54:41 <klieber> Stuart: because it's an occasional thing (as I understand it)
221 Jul 23 19:54:44 <g2boojum> Stuart: It's only for a limited period of time.
222 Jul 23 19:54:53 <Stuart> fair enough
223 Jul 23 19:55:08 <tberman> um, how is that different
224 Jul 23 19:55:11 <tberman> i +v anyone who asks
225 Jul 23 19:55:22 <tberman> and i +v people i see in #gentoo helping who seem to have ideas
226 Jul 23 19:55:40 <tberman> its basically open now, just a bit a chat-sanity prevention
227 Jul 23 19:55:49 <avenj> i'm more selective about voice
228 Jul 23 19:55:58 <spyderous> a lot of people request a reason for it
229 Jul 23 19:56:01 <avenj> too many people have showed up, asked for voice, and had something that belongs in #gentoo
230 Jul 23 19:56:01 <avenj> right
231 Jul 23 19:56:07 <tberman> and to prevent it from being basically 'oh, ebuild y is broken, im going into -dev and asking why why why
232 Jul 23 19:56:25 <avenj> typically people try to use it as their own personal bugzilla or tech support channel
233 Jul 23 19:56:37 <tberman> exactly, +m prevents that
234 Jul 23 19:56:48 <spyderous> otoh, if it's a development-related question from a user, doesn't it belong in -dev?
235 Jul 23 19:57:03 <klieber> spyderous: isn't that why we can all selectively +v users?
236 Jul 23 19:57:26 <avenj> spyderous: more often it's "kde is segfaulting, can someone help me?" or along those lines
237 Jul 23 19:57:52 <g2boojum> spyderous: We also do have a completely open gentoo-dev mailing list.
238 Jul 23 19:57:54 <Stuart> y'know, when businesses want to know what the customer experience is, they have two main tools at their disposal
239 Jul 23 19:57:55 <spyderous> i would like to discover a way to emphasize that -dev is for development issues
240 Jul 23 19:57:59 <spyderous> just like the mailing list, g2boojum
241 Jul 23 19:58:06 <tberman> see, however, devs use it for the same thing, so its somewhat a bit hypocritical to say no users can use it for tech support, but devs can
242 Jul 23 19:58:07 <spyderous> rarely do -user questions come on -dev
243 Jul 23 19:58:09 <spyderous> people figure it out
244 Jul 23 19:58:10 <tberman> i admit i do it as well
245 Jul 23 19:58:14 <Stuart> one is market research - polls, invited forums etc
246 Jul 23 19:58:19 <Stuart> the other is usability testing
247 Jul 23 19:58:43 <Stuart> gentoo, as far as I can tell, doesn't really do either
248 Jul 23 19:58:55 <Stuart> just a comment
249 Jul 23 19:58:57 <avenj> what's involved with 'usability testing'?
250 Jul 23 19:59:06 * avenj uses gentoo all the time - does that count? :)
251 Jul 23 19:59:17 * tberman listens to stuart, he is s-m-a-r-t ;)
252 Jul 23 19:59:32 <Stuart> real users are asked to try new products out. Their feedback is recorded, as well as their actions and demeanour
253 Jul 23 19:59:40 * Stuart is not smart, just old
254 Jul 23 19:59:43 <g2boojum> tberman: Yes, but I can either ignore you, or answer you, and it's unlikely to stop me from seeing what other devs are saying. If 500+ people are doing that, though....
255 Jul 23 20:00:02 <Stuart> we push new ebuilds out all the time
256 Jul 23 20:00:08 <spyderous> if we got a tighter reign on off-topic stuff in #gentoo-dev, it wouldn't be an issue.
257 Jul 23 20:00:16 <avenj> Stuart: isn't that what bugzilla is for?
258 Jul 23 20:00:17 <tberman> g2boojum: oh, i doubt i would stop, but im just pointing out
259 Jul 23 20:00:23 <avenj> Stuart: and why some of us monitor the forums and #gentoo for comments?
260 Jul 23 20:00:31 <Stuart> avenj: not really
261 Jul 23 20:00:50 <Stuart> avenj: how many people can be bothered to post in bugzilla when they have a problem?
262 Jul 23 20:01:11 <avenj> if they don't take the time to report a bug, they can't expect it to get fixed
263 Jul 23 20:01:17 <avenj> that seems fair enough to me
264 Jul 23 20:01:20 <Stuart> and the very name bugzilla implies 'bugs, faults' - there'll be people out there who think it's not for new ideas
265 Jul 23 20:01:26 <spyderous> how many give up because bugzilla is too complicated.
266 Jul 23 20:01:26 <avenj> judging by the sheer volume of new bugs, quite a few people can be bothered to post when they have a problem
267 Jul 23 20:01:42 <avenj> note that i also mentioned #gentoo and the forums
268 Jul 23 20:01:46 <avenj> which many devs read
269 Jul 23 20:02:07 <Stuart> I did note that
270 Jul 23 20:02:08 <avenj> i don't see how we could record user reactions to things other than monitoring #gentoo and the forums, which happens already
271 Jul 23 20:02:29 <klieber> guys -- we're talking about a lot of things here. so many, in fact, that I lost track of what it is that we're trying to accomplish. Can someone help me by telling me what it is we're trying to do/decide?
272 Jul 23 20:02:33 <Stuart> well, in the real world, they run usability labs, where people are filmed
273 Jul 23 20:02:45 <avenj> Stuart: buy us a lab :)
274 Jul 23 20:03:00 <avenj> #gentoo and the forums are effectively a usability lab, in that case
275 Jul 23 20:03:17 <avenj> but klieber's right, we're all over the place: what's the goal?
276 Jul 23 20:03:38 <Brandy> klieber: Often devs and newbie's seem to have mutually exclusive roles in Gentoo; they can seem worlds apart, but we also want to create the 'appearance' that their concerns will be dealt with by the dev community.
277 Jul 23 20:03:59 <klieber> Brandy: sure -- I thought that's what the purpose of this project was.
278 Jul 23 20:04:09 <klieber> I thought it was supposed to be a conduit
279 Jul 23 20:04:14 <klieber> and a filter
280 Jul 23 20:04:22 <Brandy> klieber: exactly.
281 Jul 23 20:04:27 <spyderous> i think what's missing is an official tier of people willing to help users
282 Jul 23 20:04:58 <g2boojum> Brandy: Actually, we want to create the reality as well as the appearance. I think klieber's asking if there's a _specific_ proposal that we're supposed to be considering.
283 Jul 23 20:05:06 <klieber> indeed.
284 Jul 23 20:05:34 <Stuart> then I want to make such a proposal, if I may
285 Jul 23 20:05:59 <seemant> please
286 Jul 23 20:06:04 <Stuart> k - thanks
287 Jul 23 20:06:15 <Stuart> apologies if it's too specific and narrow for the group
288 Jul 23 20:06:22 * avenj likes specifics
289 Jul 23 20:06:36 <tberman> Stuart: do it in visio man, those charts were awesome
290 Jul 23 20:06:52 <Stuart> I want to chair a user meeting on IRC about the webapps mess - and I want it publicised in GWN well in advance
291 Jul 23 20:07:11 <Stuart> users who can't attend will be invited to email their opinions and suggestions instead
292 Jul 23 20:07:39 <spyderous> the goal?
293 Jul 23 20:08:00 <Stuart> the goal is to find out how our users think we should be installing webapps on their machines
294 Jul 23 20:08:18 <Stuart> before we go ahead and write a tonne of ebuilds to do the job
295 Jul 23 20:08:37 <tberman> Stuart: while i agree a level of dev->user interaction is a must, and very very good, a user irc meeting about it is the wrong way to go imo
296 Jul 23 20:08:42 <tberman> use the gentoo-dev mailing list
297 Jul 23 20:08:46 <tberman> thats what its for
298 Jul 23 20:08:53 <seemant> klieber: on a related note -- method said you and him had talked about a wiki (tikiwiki?) -- how far away are we from that
299 Jul 23 20:08:58 <tberman> and then you dont just get the corner case of users free at that time who are willing to irc
300 Jul 23 20:09:10 <seemant> seeing as we've gotten waaaay off the agenda anyway :/
301 Jul 23 20:09:15 <klieber> seemant: method was supposed to set up a proof-of-concept box while I secured some more permanent hardware.
302 Jul 23 20:09:18 <spyderous> ok, let me sum up my points one last time.
303 Jul 23 20:09:19 <spyderous> 1) improved attitudes, 2) improved approachability, especially about development issues 3) simply ask devs who can to help out more 4) inform users what resources are available
304 Jul 23 20:09:24 <Stuart> tberman: that's why you have to run two or three different chats at different times
305 Jul 23 20:09:24 <spyderous> people disagreed with 2
306 Jul 23 20:09:25 <klieber> seemant: I think method is still working on his side of thins
307 Jul 23 20:09:28 <spyderous> agreed with the rest
308 Jul 23 20:09:32 --> coredumb (hidden-use@212.199.104.98) has joined #gentoo-devrel
309 Jul 23 20:09:49 <seemant> klieber: I think php-team is working on ebuilding tikiwiki at least (I emailed them about it last night)
310 Jul 23 20:09:56 <klieber> seemant: cool
311 Jul 23 20:10:02 <Stuart> seemant: I emailed you back about tikiwiki
312 Jul 23 20:10:06 <seemant> Stuart: yep :)
313 Jul 23 20:10:10 <avenj> spyderous: i think we're looking for specifics about those items
314 Jul 23 20:10:41 <Stuart> seemant: I can hack something together for tikiwiki quickly, while we sort out the webapps mess
315 Jul 23 20:10:48 <g2boojum> Stuart, tberman: I think we can leave the methods for gathering user input up to the devs who are interested.
316 Jul 23 20:11:10 <Stuart> g2boojum: then you don't mind me going ahead with my proposal?
317 Jul 23 20:11:35 <tberman> g2boojum: true, poing :)
318 Jul 23 20:11:36 <tberman> er
319 Jul 23 20:11:37 <tberman> point
320 Jul 23 20:11:38 <seemant> Stuart: that would be nice
321 Jul 23 20:11:40 <g2boojum> Stuart: No, I certainly don't mind. I don't think I should really have any say in the matter.
322 Jul 23 20:11:49 <spyderous> i didn't realize i was going to talk so much. i'll put some more specifics together and send out an email or something.
323 Jul 23 20:11:59 <seemant> ok, so moving on
324 Jul 23 20:12:12 <seemant> how are we feeling about the Conflict Resolution/Ombudsman project idea?
325 Jul 23 20:12:14 <seemant> klieber: ?
326 Jul 23 20:12:17 <tberman> i love it
327 Jul 23 20:12:39 * g2boojum won't have his page up until Friday.
328 Jul 23 20:12:44 <klieber> seemant: no strong opinions one way or the other.
329 Jul 23 20:13:08 <seemant> klieber: can you summarise your weaker feelings?
330 Jul 23 20:13:21 <spyderous> g2boojum: are you able to quickly summarize the ombudsman's role? i don't remember the result of the discussion
331 Jul 23 20:13:31 <Brandy> I the Ombudsman a single individual, or is conflict resolution handled by a board?
332 Jul 23 20:13:32 <seemant> spyderous: check the GLEP
333 Jul 23 20:13:36 <Brandy> s/I/Is
334 Jul 23 20:13:43 <tberman> Brandy: you too
335 Jul 23 20:14:18 <klieber> seemant: same as I said before -- i'm mostly concerned with greasing squeeks and not solving the underlying issues.
336 Jul 23 20:14:25 <spyderous> ah, he mentioned the page wouldn't be up til friday so i thought there were changes.
337 Jul 23 20:14:28 <klieber> that said, I still see this position as a decent pressure valve
338 Jul 23 20:14:30 <g2boojum> Brandy: individual. The ombudsman mediates. It's the managers who have to make decisions.
339 Jul 23 20:14:51 <seemant> klieber: so as a pressure valve, you're ok with at least experimenting with the idea?
340 Jul 23 20:14:54 <klieber> sure
341 Jul 23 20:15:21 <seemant> g2boojum: kk, when you have page ready, lemme know and we'll move it from planned to active subproject
342 Jul 23 20:15:25 <seemant> that was quick :)
343 Jul 23 20:15:27 <g2boojum> seemant: k
344 Jul 23 20:15:42 <seemant> Brandy: an update on User Rel from you?
345 Jul 23 20:15:44 <spyderous> what's done to ensure the ombudsman has no conflicts of interest?
346 Jul 23 20:16:06 <tberman> spyderous: there is a backup
347 Jul 23 20:16:19 <Brandy> The user-rel page is up. It's rudimentary but does contain usable info
348 Jul 23 20:16:33 <Brandy> I'm looking at adding a FAQ this week or so
349 Jul 23 20:17:27 <g2boojum> Brandy: If you do, please let swift know. If we're going to be distributing docs around the website, we need to make sure our docs team knows about them.
350 Jul 23 20:17:42 <avenj> i don't think the docs team should necessarily have to review everything under each top level project
351 Jul 23 20:17:43 <Brandy> And I'm also not sure how many devs will actually read info placed on user-rel, so I'm considering sending a weekly update of user-issues to the -dev mailing list
352 Jul 23 20:17:45 <avenj> there's just too much there
353 Jul 23 20:18:00 <avenj> but there haven't been any actual decisions on the scope of the docs project with regards to top level project documentation
354 Jul 23 20:18:14 <seemant> Brandy: the -dev ml update is a good idea for sure
355 Jul 23 20:18:15 <Brandy> g2boojum: will do - which reminds me, I'm looking at contributing to a newbie's guide to Gentoo
356 Jul 23 20:18:38 <g2boojum> avenj: I didn't mean they need to review it; but they need to make sure there's a link to that faq from the general faq (or some other way of easily finding it)
357 Jul 23 20:18:44 <avenj> g2boojum: i agree
358 Jul 23 20:18:50 <seemant> avenj: agreed -- where possible we should try and co-ordinate with them so they know about the docs we're bringing online
359 Jul 23 20:19:10 <avenj> i think we should perhaps add a section to the main docs page for top-level project documentation (links to it, that is)
360 Jul 23 20:19:34 <seemant> which reminds me
361 Jul 23 20:19:50 <seemant> klieber: any ETA on when the project pages will be click-to'able?
362 Jul 23 20:20:19 <klieber> seemant: pauldv is putting together an index. as soon as that is done, we'll link to that page from the front page.
363 Jul 23 20:20:34 <seemant> klieber: oh excellent! thanks
364 Jul 23 20:20:36 <klieber> in the managers meeting, pauldv was talking about mon. or tues.
365 Jul 23 20:20:40 <g2boojum> avenj: I sort-of agree. Our top-level projects aren't necessarily intuitive for our users, so I'd prefer a more comprehensive solution.
366 Jul 23 20:20:53 <g2boojum> avenj: For the short-term, though, a link would be great!
367 Jul 23 20:21:11 <seemant> klieber: that's great news
368 Jul 23 20:21:54 <seemant> Brandy: GWN?
369 Jul 23 20:22:41 <Brandy> Where are we on announcing Dev-Rel to the userbase? I feel that User-Rel at least could be
370 Jul 23 20:22:55 <tberman> im wondering if someone is going to look at a potential site redesign for gentoo, imo, and its just my opinion, but the site design is pretty antiquated and difficult to deal with
371 Jul 23 20:23:06 <klieber> tberman: yes
372 Jul 23 20:23:22 <klieber> tberman: if you know of any professional graphic designers willing to donate their services, please have them contact me
373 Jul 23 20:23:25 <Stuart> tberman: site looks fine, but the site map needs fixing
374 Jul 23 20:23:28 <tberman> klieber: i do
375 Jul 23 20:23:35 <klieber> tberman: cool -- have them drop me a line
376 Jul 23 20:23:41 <seemant> anyone object to us announcing User Rel on next week's GWN then?
377 Jul 23 20:23:47 <klieber> tberman: daniel also knows a few people as I understand it
378 Jul 23 20:23:49 <tberman> klieber: he can be a pain to deal with sometimes, and a bit slow, but he will work for free, and on whatever i tell him too
379 Jul 23 20:23:54 <g2boojum> fine w/ me
380 Jul 23 20:23:54 <klieber> lol
381 Jul 23 20:24:05 <tberman> klieber: it will be easier for you to interface with him through me, trust me
382 Jul 23 20:24:09 <spyderous> sounds like a brother
383 Jul 23 20:24:16 <seemant> avenj: klieber: spyderous: ?
384 Jul 23 20:24:17 <tberman> spyderous: gah, no
385 Jul 23 20:24:20 <klieber> tberman: ok -- we can talk more later.
386 Jul 23 20:24:20 <seemant> coredumb: ?
387 Jul 23 20:24:22 <tberman> klieber: k
388 Jul 23 20:24:23 <klieber> seemant: no objections
389 Jul 23 20:24:28 <spyderous> sounds good
390 Jul 23 20:24:30 <coredumb> seemant: ok
391 Jul 23 20:24:30 <tberman> klieber: the issue for me is less graphics and more general interface
392 Jul 23 20:24:41 <avenj> seemant: no objections
393 Jul 23 20:24:51 <seemant> Brandy: as you say, so it will be
394 Jul 23 20:24:59 <Brandy> excellent :)
395 Jul 23 20:25:05 <seemant> thanks everyone
396 Jul 23 20:25:12 <seemant> sorry to have let it run over as it did
397 Jul 23 20:25:15 <Brandy> before we go
398 Jul 23 20:25:27 <Brandy> can we set up a set time for meetings?
399 Jul 23 20:25:44 <seemant> may as well, since we're all here
400 Jul 23 20:26:06 <seemant> the more restrictive people seem to be: coredumb & Brandy, possibly g2boojum and klieber
401 Jul 23 20:26:21 <klieber> this time works well for me.
402 Jul 23 20:26:23 <coredumb> i'm not restrictive, just tired.. :)
403 Jul 23 20:26:38 <seemant> coredumb: well, I'd like to be able to accommodate something more convenient for you
404 Jul 23 20:26:46 <Brandy> coredumb: what's the local time?
405 Jul 23 20:26:53 <coredumb> 03:27
406 Jul 23 20:27:04 <Brandy> coredumb: ouch
407 Jul 23 20:27:27 <spyderous> how about 2100 utc tuesdays?
408 Jul 23 20:27:48 <klieber> can't do that, personally
409 Jul 23 20:27:54 <klieber> but I'm not sure how much time I'm going to have.
410 Jul 23 20:28:01 <klieber> so if that works for everyone else, please go ahead with it.
411 Jul 23 20:28:02 <tberman> god with this utc stuff, i cant figure it out
412 Jul 23 20:28:08 <coredumb> hmm
413 Jul 23 20:28:18 <g2boojum> tberman: date -u
414 Jul 23 20:28:19 <tberman> 5pm tuesdays eastern?
415 Jul 23 20:28:31 <tberman> g2boojum: yes, i know that, but then i have to still do the basic math ;p
416 Jul 23 20:28:44 <coredumb> midnight here
417 Jul 23 20:28:48 <spyderous> klieber: when can you?
418 Jul 23 20:28:59 <coredumb> any chance to have that on monday?
419 Jul 23 20:29:16 <seemant> coredumb: manager's meeting is 1800 UTC on monday
420 Jul 23 20:29:25 <spyderous> how about 2000 utc monday
421 Jul 23 20:29:26 <klieber> spyderous: really, about all I can do is in the 0200 - 0400 UTC timeframe in weekly meetings.
422 Jul 23 20:29:27 <seemant> coredumb: we can do it before or after I suppose
423 Jul 23 20:29:33 * Stuart waves goodnight
424 Jul 23 20:29:35 <spyderous> oh, bummer klieber
425 Jul 23 20:29:37 <-- Stuart (~stuart@myrddraal.demon.co.uk) has left #gentoo-devrel
426 Jul 23 20:29:47 <klieber> like I said -- you shouldn't schedule around me.
427 Jul 23 20:30:02 <coredumb> hm, is friday night (here) ok?
428 Jul 23 20:30:04 <seemant> klieber: eh? 02 - 04?
429 Jul 23 20:30:11 <seemant> klieber: aren't you in bed by then
430 Jul 23 20:30:11 <seemant> ?
431 Jul 23 20:30:15 <tberman> seemant: UTC
432 Jul 23 20:30:18 <klieber> UTC? no
433 Jul 23 20:30:21 <coredumb> 23UTC friday???
434 Jul 23 20:30:27 <coredumb> er
435 Jul 23 20:30:27 <spyderous> that's...10p-12a eastern?
436 Jul 23 20:30:29 <klieber> that's 8pm - 10pm my time
437 Jul 23 20:30:30 <coredumb> tooooooooo many ? :)
438 Jul 23 20:30:53 <seemant> klieber: oh I thought it was 10-midnight your time
439 Jul 23 20:31:06 <klieber> oops -- I was wrong.
440 Jul 23 20:31:11 <g2boojum> coredumb: My wife rather likes spending Friday nights w/ her husband.
441 Jul 23 20:31:18 <klieber> so I can do most things 2300 - 0100 UTC
442 Jul 23 20:31:21 * klieber hugs date -u
443 Jul 23 20:31:28 <seemant> g2boojum: cool, then when she's gone you can meet with us :P
444 Jul 23 20:31:36 <tberman> hah
445 Jul 23 20:31:40 <spyderous> could work wednesday
446 Jul 23 20:31:40 <spyderous> but way too late for coredumb, maybe Brandy too
447 Jul 23 20:31:40 <coredumb> hm
448 Jul 23 20:31:43 <coredumb> thursdays?
449 Jul 23 20:31:56 <seemant> Brandy: what's your free times?
450 Jul 23 20:32:00 <seemant> coredumb: what are yours?
451 Jul 23 20:32:02 <Brandy> spyderous: what time is too late for me?
452 Jul 23 20:32:09 <spyderous> Brandy: i have no idea.
453 Jul 23 20:32:19 <seemant> does 2300-0100 UTC on any weekday suit anyone?
454 Jul 23 20:32:19 <coredumb> seemant: depends if i work or not :)
455 Jul 23 20:32:28 <Brandy> I'm ok 2300-0100 UTC Sundays and Wednesdays
456 Jul 23 20:32:36 <g2boojum> seemant: works for me.
457 Jul 23 20:32:46 <coredumb> but i never work fridays, saturdays and usually not tuesdays
458 Jul 23 20:33:05 <spyderous> that's bad monday, and open at 2400 wednesday
459 Jul 23 20:33:06 <coredumb> seemant: too late usually
460 Jul 23 20:33:52 <seemant> klieber: lunchish hour for you on another day?
461 Jul 23 20:34:27 <seemant> Brandy: can you go earlier on any particular day?
462 Jul 23 20:34:36 <klieber> seemant: I can't do any more daily meetings -- one a week is about all I can work into my schedule.
463 Jul 23 20:34:45 <klieber> "daily" meaning during the workday for me
464 Jul 23 20:34:49 <seemant> klieber: understood
465 Jul 23 20:35:00 <Brandy> seemant: I could do 2100 - 2300 UTC any weekday
466 Jul 23 20:35:09 <tberman> why dont you guys try a during the weekend meeting
467 Jul 23 20:35:28 <coredumb> tberman: i'm trying.. :)
468 Jul 23 20:35:30 <spyderous> weekends are bad except sunday from about..2300 on
469 Jul 23 20:35:30 <tberman> like a early afternoon sunday, would be late sunday for coredumb, and early sunday for brandy (i think)
470 Jul 23 20:35:43 <seemant> early monday for her
471 Jul 23 20:35:51 <klieber> sunday is wife day for me.
472 Jul 23 20:35:54 <tberman> oh
473 Jul 23 20:35:57 <klieber> sunday evenings are generally OK.
474 Jul 23 20:36:05 <tberman> see, im so eastern time zone centric, i forgot about the IDL
475 Jul 23 20:36:33 <seemant> honestly seems like wedesday 2300 UTC is the most convenient :/
476 Jul 23 20:36:36 <coredumb> hrhr, here we work on sundays..
477 Jul 23 20:38:15 <seemant> we can try to do a lot more discussion on the mail alias though
478 Jul 23 20:38:32 <coredumb> hm, yea

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